Post by Talon Windwaltz on Jun 23, 2016 12:12:09 GMT -5
I was only putting "2"s and "3"s after the names for the sake of showing "they are still titled this."
So a level 4 Vampire is an Overseer, and a level 5 Vampire is still an Overseer, just a stronger one.
I liked the fact that not every level had to have an accompanying title, but that it mostly represented what stage of their development they were at.
EDIT: Okay so apparently it was YOUR idea that vampires turn into bats and I just didn't read hard enough (sorry!)
I think Vampires should be able to turn into bats early on. (Maybe around Overseer?) Regular old bats. If they get stomped on repeatedly they'll turn to ash. But they have stealth, and wings, and increased perception.
At a higher level, either Master or Lord, they can transform into a hideous, humanoid bat monster a la Dracula.
It isn't any stronger than the Vampire is naturally, but it has wings, can fly, and is not as easily destroyed.
I don't think vampires should turn into wolves, just because I feel like that steals the thunder from the Entirely Wolf Based Lycans. I know it's mythical, and maybe we might make it so that Masters can turn into regular mundane animals other than bats. (So Lycans of an equivalent level can turn into SUPER FENRIR WOLF, whereas Vampires just turn into Balto.)
Post by TEAGAN TEAGAN TEAGAN TEAGAN TE on Jun 23, 2016 17:00:46 GMT -5
As long as the numbers aren't part of the titles, that works for me.
The bat idea works, too. I just remembered that some vampire lore has them turning into bats, rats, and wolves (or something). We can make them bats-only since that would not intrude on lycan territory. Bats are symbolic for vampires, so I think only allowing them to become bats would be fine. The monster bat form would balance them out against the level 10 lycans, too. At least, in terms of dexterity.
Post by Morgan Pendragon on Jun 23, 2016 17:43:48 GMT -5
I don't know if this is better here or in the magic thread, but I thought we could use a human/wizard progression for comparison sake.
Wizards
Level 1-Initiate/Neophyte
Basic magic skills (ex: Able to move small/light objects, like feathers; able to produce a small light (akin to a keychain flashlight); able to levitate a few inches from the ground for about ten seconds) Overuse of powers causes fatigue.
May show slight affinity for one particular branch/school of magic
Level 2-Apprentice/Acolyte Magic becomes more reliable, but still weak. Can go longer without becoming fatigued. Shows definite (though still slight) affinity for one particular branch/school
Level 3-Disciple/Proselyte Can perform Level 1 magic easily. Greater skill is shown in general. Affinity for preferred branch/school of magic becomes more pronounced.
Level 4-Adept/Journeyman Affinity for preferred branch/school greatly pronounced. Can cast < Lvl 4 magic for four hours before becoming fatigued
Level 5-Scholar/Specialist Begins to properly specialize in preferred branch/school lvl 1-3 magic causes no fatigue Can cast lvl 4-5 magic for six hours before becoming fatigued
Level 6-Visionary/Mystic Mostly competent in primary branch/school Can begin to show affinity to secondary branch/school
Level 7-Architect/Luminary Skilled in Primary branch/school Stronger ability in secondary branch/school Simple magic becomes reflexive.
Level 8-Master/Spellbinder Accomplished in primary skill Adequate in secondary skill Can cast lvl appropriate magic for ten hours before becoming fatigued
Level 9-Archmaster Seasoned and experienced in primary skill. There is little the wizard does not know about the topic. May even teach less-skilled pupils. Proficient in secondary skill. Able to tap life-energy to give spells extra oomph. This may require the wizard to sleep and consume a lot of calories afterward.
Level 10 - Unique Title for Each School/Branch (Thaumaturge for Evocation, Oracle for Divination, Sidhe for Illusion, Warlock for Enchantment, Paladin for Abjuration, Magician for Conjuration, Enchant(er/ress) for Enchantment, Sorcer(er/ess) for Evocation, Sage for Transmutation A force to be reckoned with in primary skill. Secondary skill is fully developed, though not as strong as primary. Very few spells leave this wizard fatigued.
I am a little confused when talking about secondary skills. XD
In my mind, each school of magic had it's own progression, so a wizard could theoretically get up to rank ten in eight different things. Monster meanies, on the other hand, have the one progression tree, which they are forced to follow to the end. So, they are more likely to get to the end and be a godlike force sooner than the wizard, who will probably see how hard it is to advance in a straight line and likely branch out and get trained in multiple schools. So they eventually will surpass ze monster meanies with versatility.
Post by Morgan Pendragon on Jun 23, 2016 18:36:55 GMT -5
I don't know, I was just brainstorming. And I wanted something besides 'Learn more magic' and 'experience less fatigue'. I'm intrigued to see what other people think the progression should look like.
Post by Talon Windwaltz on Jun 23, 2016 18:56:18 GMT -5
Teags - you are absolutely right about vampires being able to turn into bats, rats, and wolves. That's all Dracula. Also, Gangrel (or anyone with Protean) in WoD. And so I'm totally cool with making that a thing - Bats, Rats, Wolves, etc. "Creatures of the Night." I just imagine that, excepting the Monstrous Bat form, they are just mundane Bats, Rats, and Wolves. Nothing special. But we can definitely JUST make it bats, since, as you said, bats are iconic. And yeah, the numbers are definitely not part of the titles. Nobody is gonna call you an 'Overseer 3' - just an Overseer that is a little stronger than another, lesser Overseer.
Morgs - As with before, I'm gonna just go ahead and say 'sure' to the mechanics because I'm not going to come up with anything better and that sounds great. (Again, my main idea is 'if the person is two steps ahead of you, they can kick your ass, one step ahead of you, they're better than you, equal, you're evenly matched,' any actual rules added is just benefit.)
HOWEVER, as fluffmeister, I must comment on your titles.
Initiate/Neophyte - I prefer Neophyte. Sounds more mystical. Apprentice/Acolyte - I prefer Acolyte here too, because it sounds more mystical, and it frees up Apprentice to be used as a general term for a student. Disciple/Proselyte - I prefer Disciple here, though, because while Proselyte sounds more mystical, I feel like 'Disciple' implies coming to understand better and 'Proselyte' means 'stranger.' Adept/Journeyman - I prefer Adept here, because I've always hated the word Journeyman. BUT that's honestly personal and both work just fine. Scholar/Specialist - Either can work. I prefer Scholar because it sounds more mystical. Visionary/Mystic - I prefer 'Visionary' because I imagine Level 5 to be the 'average' level for a class (A "Scholar" in this case) and a Visionary is one who has risen above the average. Architect/Luminary - I could go both ways. I prefer Luminary because it sounds more mystical and it shares the same ending with 'Visionary' so it keeps the rhythm going. Master/Spellbinder - Spellbinder, definitely. Way more mystical. Archmaster - If we decided to go with 'Spellbinder' then there's no reason that Level 9 couldn't just be 'Master.' No need for 'Arch' in front of it. -- What this also means is that the base term for a Level 10 Wizard would be an 'Archmaster.' So Level 10 is the 'Archmaster' Rank, but it has a special name per school.
Unique Titles - Evocation - Thaumaturge. I think it sounds more mystical than 'Sorcerer/ess' and I'd rather Sorcerer/ess just be a given term for any wizard.
Divination - Oracle. Very mystical and you didn't suggest an alternative so I guess you agree!
Illusion - Siddhi. You wrote it as 'Sidhe' which I think is a Fairy? Which I think is really interesting! But a 'Siddhi' is actually a Hindu magician who has grasped the power of the Great Illusion (Mahamaya) and is able to sort of manipulate reality based on it. It's not that you bend the spoon, it's just that there is no spoon. It's different from a Buddha or someone who has achieved Moksha because you're not really Enlightened so much as you are Enlightened ENOUGH that you get the reality is fake and can do stuff with it. Some branches of Hinduism actually believe that being a Siddha is immature and a waste of time, because SURE reality is fake but the more you screw around with it, the longer it's going to take for you to get over it!
Enchantment - Warlock. I prefer Warlock to Enchanter/ress because Enchanter/ress is just too...obvious? And the school of Enchantment isn't just making things move, it's also messing with people's heads and generally just making things act ways they normally wouldn't. I feel 'Warlock' best represents that, but we could go with 'Enchanter/ress' because that's what you ARE.
Abjuration - Paladin. I LOVE THIS! Bad-ass title, makes perfect sense, and would totally encourage people to take up the otherwise boring Abjuration class. Alternatively, 'Sentinel.'
Conjuration - To be honest, I'm on the fence here. 'Magician' makes sense (I pull a rabbit out of my hat!) because Magicians in the tarot and in terms of tricks create from where there is nothing. However, it's such a base term for a wizard that I feel like it doesn't really carry any grandiosity to me. And by reaching Level 10, you should feel grandiose.
Transmutation - Alchemist. I like Sage, but I feel like 'Alchemist' better captures what Transmutation is meant to do.
EDIT: The word is actually 'Siddha' - Siddhi is Hindu 'magic.'
Post by TEAGAN TEAGAN TEAGAN TEAGAN TE on Jun 23, 2016 19:15:14 GMT -5
I like Morgan's flow scheme. Since both monsters and humans are going to have progression trees, I think it's fine to start poking at them here. Once we get the basic direction down, we can start a new thread and hash out the details. I think this works well for the basic flow. However, I also see each type of magic getting its own flow tree. If it's like that, then each one has the option of becoming a specialist or generalist right off the bat. I think this diversity will invite some strategy play. Choosing a major and later a minor, like Morgan suggested, would probably be a common choice in the end.
In the meantime, how will lycans and vampires reach the floating island to wreak havoc? Vampires can fly after reaching higher levels, but lycans are grounded. I was thinking maybe we could have a harpies who are willing to transport those who pay them or something? I have some ideas for both harpies and arachnes, so will anyone mind if I jot up a progression plan for each of them? Although lycans and vampires are common mystic monsters, I think adding in some less-popular options would be nice, too. Even if people do not jump to play them right away, writers could uset hem as a reference. "An arachne dissolved my homework!" or "The lycan pack's tribute to the harpies was worth every glittering stone now that they reached the human continent, and the fresh scent of human meat whetted their hunger."
Post by Talon Windwaltz on Jun 23, 2016 19:57:55 GMT -5
Lycans and Vampires already live on the floating island. They were sent up by the Fae a long time ago (maybe by Harpies, maybe just getting thrown up there) in ancient wars, and the survivors have simply lived in the Forest/Mountains for centuries and reproduce. They're all terrified of going back down to the surface because they know they will be re-enslaved. That was my thought process anyhow.
I'm...uncertain, honestly, about the 'do all get progression charts or do we simplify it to just two.' I had, like Tim, imagined that you could become an Archmaster in all ten over time. However, I also like the idea of a 'major' and a 'minor.' It encourages individual characters to work together and actually serve a purpose in 'parties' and also simplifies things.
And I like simple.
I'm leaning more towards Morgan's system, UNLESS someone can come up with ten compelling flowcharts that differ in some way.
EDIT: My main issue with Harpies, btw, is that they are an all female race in mythology. I'd prefer to avoid stuff like that, because I played a male 'Valkyrie' for years and that was super duper awkward because Valkyries are specifically all female. I wouldn't want to bring that awkwardness to this new place when we're hammering stuff out.
So, if I'm reading it correctly, are you going towards the idea of like... "I started studying illusion and eventually picked up some evocation. Since those are my major and minor schools I literally am unable to learn how to practice any necromancy". That is kinda what it feels like and if so, Imma give that line of thought a hard pass. D:
Dunno why we would need ten compelling flowcharts instead of just one general one (a most) that applies to any school of magic that can be referenced as needed, with an additional paragraph for each school saying the nature of the magic associated with each school (you know, beginners in evocation be lighting torches, but by level ten you're going supernova).
Telling people they have less choices doesn't make them work together better, since people are already going to have different approaches to ranking up their magic. You work together better by finding the people who have different schools of magic trained up more than anyone else you know.
Post by Morgan Pendragon on Jun 23, 2016 22:31:32 GMT -5
I wasn't thinking of it that way, tbh. I was thinking more along the lines of the idea that these are skills which take years, even decades, to master. More like, "Wow, I just got my PhD, AND finished law school simultaneously. I'm not sure I want to go back in for pre-med, or become a master carpenter."
But yeah, you're right. Some people will choose to go for the PhD and be super dedicated in a single area. Some people will be fairly accomplished in one field with a smattering of knowledge in others, and some people are going to be the type to change majors like seventeen times and know a little bit of everything.
So, retool the progression to be more of a general "Your magic is stronger, and you don't get tired so easy". With, like you said, a blurb about what each school of magic does.
I do like the titles, though.
@talon Sorry, I didn't see I had Evocation twice. Thaumaturge is better. So is Alchemist. As for Illusion, I meant to imply the fairy, since a lot of fairy magic in folklore is illusion-based.
Post by TEAGAN TEAGAN TEAGAN TEAGAN TE on Jun 24, 2016 6:04:32 GMT -5
If the lycans and vamps and things were already up there, that's fine. I'm just trying to make sense of it. We can always add more monsters at a later time. If it's like that, then the beasties are already up there and have reason to fight with the humans over territory. The one safe and viable area is on the floating island, and everyone wants a piece of it. In that case, it makes more sense for everyone to have just found it and hopped aboard than to have people intentionally levitate it. After all, they would not have intentionally taken monsters along with them.
Post by Talon Windwaltz on Jun 24, 2016 13:14:05 GMT -5
See my comment in Boards, but according to what I have so far, the Lycans and Vampires are up there because of an old war between the Fae and Humans in which the Abominations were the vanguard. They certainly did not intentionally take monsters with them. I thought I had pointed that out much earlier, but I guess I didn't.
Post by TEAGAN TEAGAN TEAGAN TEAGAN TE on Jun 25, 2016 7:22:09 GMT -5
Before I forget to ask again, what about the humans who are turned into level 1 beasties? If they already know magic, should they be able to keep the magic they know, although they cannot learn any more magic after that? They could just be unable to use it until they reach level 3 and can start think on their own. Or do we want to just give the writer a refund instead and remove any human magic from the beast character?
Personally I'd say they should lose their magic, but giving them a refund straight out might be unfair (it'd be a bit silly for someone to suddenly become king beast just cause they got their wizard bit a day ago). I might argue in that case a time frame. Release the points and auto level them on a timer (basically one or two levels worth a month, maybe faster at low levels). Plus still level them for their posts. (So, let's say Jimmy, level 5 wizard, gets bit. He posts for a month as a level 1 beastie, and accumulate enough points to go to level 2. Then we release x points for one month as a creature and he goes up to level 3 or 4. Then he does another month, but it's not enough to level him, but another set of points releases and levels him again, etc.) That way there's still time and progression to their powers developing but it does account for their previous activity.
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